MED. 8.37Discipline of desire
George Long · 1862EN · Long

Does Panthea1 or Pergamus now sit by the tomb of PERSONVerus? Does Chabrias or Diotimus sit by the tomb of PERSONHadrian? That would be ridiculous. Well, suppose they did sit there, would the dead be conscious of it? And if the dead were conscious, would they be pleased? And if they were pleased, would that make them immortal? EXERCISEWas it not in the order of destiny that these persons too should first become old women and old men and then die? What then would those do after these were dead? EXERCISEAll this is foul smell and blood in a bag.

Original · ancient Greek

Μήτι νῦν παρακάθηται τῇ Οὐήρου σορῷ Πάνθεια ἢ Πέργαμος; τί δέ, τῇ Ἁδριανοῦ Χαβρίας ἢ Διότιμος; γελοῖον. τί δέ, εἰ παρεκάθηντο, ἔμελλον αἰσθάνεσθαι; τί δέ, εἰ ᾐσθάνοντο, ἔμελλον ἡσθήσεσθαι; τί δέ, εἰ ἥδοντο, ἔμελλον οὗτοι ἀθάνατοι εἶναι; οὐχὶ καὶ τούτους πρῶτον μὲν γραίας καὶ γέροντας γενέσθαι οὕτως εἵμαρτο, εἶτα ἀποθανεῖν; τί οὖν ὕστερον ἔμελλον ἐκεῖνοι ποιεῖν τούτων ἀποθανόντων; γράσος πᾶν τοῦτο καὶ λύθρος ἐν θυλάκῳ.

Leopold · Teubner 1908
Commentary

The futility of grief at the tomb. A chain of conditional questions that dissects the cult of the dead into absurdity. Do the mourners still sit (Panthea, Pergamus for Verus; Chabrias, Diotimus for Hadrian) by the tombs? "Ridiculous" (γελοῖον). But even if they did — "would the dead perceive it?" (ἔμελλον αἰσθάνεσθαι;), and if they perceived — "would they be pleased?", and if pleased — "would that make them immortal?". The ladder of four "and ifs" lays bare that posthumous honour never reaches its addressee and changes nothing in his lot.

The mourners too will die. A turn upon the grievers themselves: EXERCISEthey too are "fated (εἵμαρτο) first to grow old, then to die" — so what would the dead "do" after the death of their own dead? The whole edifice of mourning collapses from both ends. The close is a sharp EXERCISEphysical definition: "all this is stench (γράσος) and gore (λύθρος) in a bag (θύλακος)": both the body of the honoured and the body of the honourer are a leather sack of rotting stuffing (cf. 8.24 — the bath as oil-sweat-filth; 9.36). There are no term-lemmata in the text. The governing discipline is desire (not to cling to posthumous memory), the sustaining one assent (to break the spell of the body by the bare definition).

DisciplineDiscipline of desire
Record added2026-07-16
Statuspublished
Discipline of desire

George Long · 1862· EN · Long

Does Panthea1 or Pergamus now sit by the tomb of PERSONVerus? Does Chabrias or Diotimus sit by the tomb of PERSONHadrian? That would be ridiculous. Well, suppose they did sit there, would the dead be conscious of it? And if the dead were conscious, would they be pleased? And if they were pleased, would that make them immortal? EXERCISEWas it not in the order of destiny that these persons too should first become old women and old men and then die? What then would those do after these were dead? EXERCISEAll this is foul smell and blood in a bag.

Original · ancient Greek

Μήτι νῦν παρακάθηται τῇ Οὐήρου σορῷ Πάνθεια ἢ Πέργαμος; τί δέ, τῇ Ἁδριανοῦ Χαβρίας ἢ Διότιμος; γελοῖον. τί δέ, εἰ παρεκάθηντο, ἔμελλον αἰσθάνεσθαι; τί δέ, εἰ ᾐσθάνοντο, ἔμελλον ἡσθήσεσθαι; τί δέ, εἰ ἥδοντο, ἔμελλον οὗτοι ἀθάνατοι εἶναι; οὐχὶ καὶ τούτους πρῶτον μὲν γραίας καὶ γέροντας γενέσθαι οὕτως εἵμαρτο, εἶτα ἀποθανεῖν; τί οὖν ὕστερον ἔμελλον ἐκεῖνοι ποιεῖν τούτων ἀποθανόντων; γράσος πᾶν τοῦτο καὶ λύθρος ἐν θυλάκῳ.

Leopold · Teubner 1908
Marginalia1
Related4
Commentary

The futility of grief at the tomb. A chain of conditional questions that dissects the cult of the dead into absurdity. Do the mourners still sit (Panthea, Pergamus for Verus; Chabrias, Diotimus for Hadrian) by the tombs? "Ridiculous" (γελοῖον). But even if they did — "would the dead perceive it?" (ἔμελλον αἰσθάνεσθαι;), and if they perceived — "would they be pleased?", and if pleased — "would that make them immortal?". The ladder of four "and ifs" lays bare that posthumous honour never reaches its addressee and changes nothing in his lot.

The mourners too will die. A turn upon the grievers themselves: EXERCISEthey too are "fated (εἵμαρτο) first to grow old, then to die" — so what would the dead "do" after the death of their own dead? The whole edifice of mourning collapses from both ends. The close is a sharp EXERCISEphysical definition: "all this is stench (γράσος) and gore (λύθρος) in a bag (θύλακος)": both the body of the honoured and the body of the honourer are a leather sack of rotting stuffing (cf. 8.24 — the bath as oil-sweat-filth; 9.36). There are no term-lemmata in the text. The governing discipline is desire (not to cling to posthumous memory), the sustaining one assent (to break the spell of the body by the bare definition).

DisciplineDiscipline of desire
Record added2026-07-16
Statuspublished